Let’s talk family enterprise explores global ideas, concepts and models that help family enterprise advisors better serve their family clients brought to you by family enterprise Canada. All views Information and opinions expressed during this podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of family enterprise canada.
Hello, and welcome back to the let’s talk family enterprise podcast. My name is Ruth Steverlynck and I will actually become a guest host for the podcast because I earlier this year passed the reins to some very able people who are now leading the podcast but on the podcast with me today I have the main podcast host for the let’s talk family enterprise podcast Steve Legler. Steve, it’s so lovely to be with you again. How are you?
This is excellent. You know, I always know that. I can’t believe another year has gone by when it’s time for Ruth and I to get together and look back at all some of the great podcasts we recorded this year. And once again, I think we delivered some great content can’t wait to be talking about some of them with you.
Yeah, and thank you so much for inviting me back to do this because this is one of my favorite podcasts because I love curation and I love where we sort of capture the highlights. One easy format and that’s really what the purpose of our time together today is is to look back at 2023 and share some of the highlights from the amazing guests that the podcast hosted over the past 12 months. So theme you were really leading this this year. What was the highlight for you tell me one of the highlights podcasts for you.
You know, the one we did that was different was that episode 50 which video we had three guests. They all happen to be previous guests as well. They’re people that I know and love and respect. And we talked about well 3.0 In episode 50 And I think that was to me it was a highlight. I think the plan is to do some more video ones in the future. I don’t know how often but and also to have maybe more than one guest that we sort of stretched a bit on that one and and I think the result was really good. There. Yeah, that
was a really great as soon as you say three amazing people in our space, Jim Grabner, Dennis Jaffe and Kristen cover like, we produce so much intellectual property for us as advisors in the family enterprise space. So the podcast was really focused on the release of their book. Well, 3.0 What were some of the highlights that came up for you in your conversation with them, Steve? Well,
they started to talk about you know, what we talked about as well in the FBA program is the fact that there’s so many different fields that we’re trying to integrate. And just like all the people who come to the FBA program, we come from, you know, a dozen or so different fields to approach this work. And really over the last few decades, it has evolved and the collaboration aspect and, and I love the part that in their book, they actually talk about the 10 domains model of wealth, which is another episode that I did with Jim Grubman, I think it was last year, right. So, just the fact that that they’re talking about where the field was and where it’s going. And I think it’s important for all of us FTAs to sort of get an understanding of the progress that we’re making, and and where things are going so we can all sort of line up and help move the ball down the field together.
Yeah, I don’t know about you see, but I in reading the book well, 3.0 and listening to the podcast again, in preparation for our sort of session to our time together today where we’re revisiting these podcasts. I have to say I felt pretty good about where Canada is that because a lot of the conversation you had with German Christian and Dennis was focused on, you know, the need for a multidisciplinary approach the need for the field to have a designation, the need for research and I was listening going wow, FTC is actually doing a lot of that the foundation produces some research papers. We do. I mean, a fundamental part of being an FTA that is embedded throughout the program, and really is an approach that is so important in in the field of family enterprise advising is this multidisciplinary approach that we cannot do it alone, so I felt pretty good. I was like, I think Canada’s pretty pioneering relative to maybe some other countries like the US and the UK where it’s maybe not as sophisticated as we really developed here in Canada. I
agree. And I think at some point in that episode, I mentioned that I thought they were sort of preaching to the converted already for our audience in Canada because I know what we have here in Canada with this program is way ahead of anything and everything else that’s out there. And you and I both work with the US people and we see that they’re they’re still catching up. And so let’s keep leaving, and we need to sort of still also know what’s going on elsewhere. So we can also be part of
it. Yeah, I mean, there’s a couple of really great nuggets that came out of your discussion with them. And I love this idea of a positive discovery process that they talked about. And you know, one of the questions that we have asked every single podcast anyone that you’ve done, every one that I’ve done, everyone that our new guest hosts or are doing is this question at the end around one of the reading, and Kristin, brought into my awareness, a blog that I have not heard of, but I’m really enjoying is Angela Duckworth blog on character building? Because I think character building is such an important piece of our work because we support families and the individuals within the families. So you know, that’s another thing I love about our podcast is we get to tap into what are others reading and what are others hearing about that we may not be aware of. And that was one that I really appreciated and have been actively engaged with since she brought it to my attention.
And I’m glad you mentioned that one because I think most of our audience was already familiar with Jim Grubman and Dennis Jaffe, I think Kristen is a little bit newer to this whole. She was at symposium in Ottawa back in May, and she was a guest speaker there but her talking about Angela Duckworth is because a few years ago, she did her master’s in positive psychology at the University of Pennsylvania where Angela Duckworth teaches and that is part of the whole positive framing of the whole wealth 3.0 book. So I’m glad we talked about this one, but I want to move on to one that you did. They weren’t the only one Yeah, but but at least you did one but you went straight to the top and you interviewed to the grandfather of our field tapings. Yeah. And so that that was really interesting. It’s all it’s always so interesting to listen to that man talk.
Well, you know, that Monday of all time, and I’ve heard him speak many times, and he’s the only human being that I know that in a 30 minute conversation, he can cover our stock electrons and the second law of thermodynamics and, you know, Mother Nature. You know, he is just so smart and brilliant, and as I think they said, but 10 times on the podcast. He really has been an incredible contributor to our thinking in the space of whether it’s family wealth advising or family enterprise advising or family business advising. I think Jay has, you know, he has been such a contributor to to our thinking. So I was a bit giddy talking to Jay. Whenever we listened
to the podcast and you could be forgiven for that and then you were talking about the foundation that is now the James II huge Junior Foundation, which he had nothing to do with putting together it was surprised him about it and said, By the way, we’re doing this and no, you can’t change the name and you know, and so, but what I love about the whole thing is his whole premise for this is that to have a flourishing society, you need to have flourishing families, and for a family to flourish. Each family member you know, it’s the rising tide that has lifts all boats and I think that’s part of what we bring to our families. Is is that attitude of hey, by the way, that’s not just about the business, you know, the MBA program, we learned that the family is the client, and the family is composed of a whole bunch of different people and like, don’t leave anyone behind. Have this financial capital help with all the other forms of capital? Yeah.
And the reason that we had Jay a primary reason for inviting him onto our podcasts was and that was probably why I was a little bit giddy when I was speaking to Jay Hughes and to because he has chosen fac as the distribution channel for the foundation and the purpose of the foundation is really again a sort of master curation of amazing intellectual property that may have gone out of print that has not been published a long time that James foundation is going to be resurrecting and or may include new pieces of intellectual property, all that advance our thinking and advanced are approaches as we work in this very complex arena of supporting individuals and families flourishing in the context of shared assets and financial resources, etc. So he was really invited on to talk a little bit about the foundation and to bring to the retention of FTAs and families within NBC that we’re going to get first access to anything that comes out of the foundation. And so far, I think we’ve had about four or five distributions from the
foundation, and it’s gonna grow next year and I think part of what I want to do in the 2024 episodes is try and you know, maybe have some of this other collaborators on to highlight some of these things. And yes, indeed, they are resurrecting stuff that that sort of has gone unnoticed, and they’re producing more stuff. So there’s, there’s lots of good stuff that come from that and so if anyone didn’t listen to that episode, go back to Episode 46. And go and listen to that and there’ll be more on this and excuse Oh, my goodness. I apologize for that. One
thing that she did say, though, that I that really stayed with me, Steve, again, in our closing question, I love our closing questions. What are you reading? And what’s one piece of advice you give course because it’s Jay he got two books that he was reading and two pieces of advice. But the piece of advice that I took away was asking families that they have courage. And I just thought wow, that’s it’s so true like to embark on the kinds of journeys that we’re inviting families to go on. It does take courage. It takes courage in the family and also as advisors. I think we need to have courage. We need to have courage to go into territory that maybe it’s not our core area of expertise. We need to have courage to ask questions that we don’t know the answer to. All in support of this idea that individual flourishing family flourishing leads to society’s flourishing.
So Ruth, you made notes when you re listen to these to prepare for today, and so did I. And here’s what I wrote. We provide the courage to our families because knowledge is not enough for those advisors who think I’m gonna bring this family some knowledge and they’ll be satisfied with it. No, sometimes we actually have to provide some of the courage for them to do some of this work. So that’s, let’s switch gears. So Enochs Well, you know,
and this is one of the so excited about how the podcast has evolved. Because the range of topics that the podcast covers and the type of, you know, the access to these global thought leaders, is exactly what the genesis of the podcast was all about. Like, let’s, let’s go to global thought leaders and interview them. And I think there was a couple of topics that came up in our in our series this year. One was prenups. And I don’t think we’ve ever talked about that and yet, it is such an important part of our work because the prenuptial process is often the first entry point for somebody coming into the family joining a family as a family enterprise or with a business or with significant wealth. The first entry point to all of that can be through the prenuptial process. And I think what your guest really highlighted hubby Coventry and ribbits in her discussion with you was Why aren’t doing that? Well.
No. Little bit about your company. It was so interesting, because so so back in October 2022. I saw cubby present at FFI and she mentioned that this book was coming out in February and I thought perfect I’ll interviewer in January and the book will come out at the same time. It happened to come out on the same day because the second Tuesday of the month would our episodes drop f&b Valentine’s Day, which was what he had chosen. But she she wants again based her book and this is her third book on interviews so she actually is more of a researcher than like you know, she just doesn’t invent this stuff. She wanted to go talk to couples who had been through this and captured their experiences and shared their perspective on what’s not working typically in this process because like you said, Ruth, this stuff shows up in a lot of families. At some point just about any family that we are talking to as advisors somewhere along the way, there’s a whole prenup thing, and I think the tendency has been Oh yeah, okay, it’s the prenup get the lawyer to draw it up and get them to sign it. And just matter of fact that everything will be fine and it’s not fine and there are ways that we can help make it better. Yeah,
I think you know, in the same way as when we’re consulting with family, businesses and family enterprises, our focuses not just on the assets, it’s on the human beings. What I took away from the your discussion with Covey in her book is that, you know, the traditional process for a prenup is, is totally focused on protecting assets. And in doing that, it forgets that there’s two human beings who are presumably in love because they’re getting married. Their relationship is at the heart of it. And who’s paying attention to that? Who’s paying attention to how they’re doing in this process? And that’s an area that I think with the lens that we bring to this work, we can really be asking those questions like how are the couple doing? How can we support them so that this process doesn’t it actually strengthens the relationship rather than the intro to the family being really painful, filled with resentment, terrifying.
Often, as you know, the couple now is fighting against the family and the lawyer is you know, and it’s not really a fair fight and the couple is at the beginning of their relationship together. And now you’re throwing this in there and it can be destabilizing and the human element needs to be part of it. And I think for us as FBAs the question again, is who is the client? For us the whole family is the client. It’s not just the parents who are saying, Okay, you must sign this prenup. We should wait. Now, this is where we need the courage as advisors to talk to those parents and say, Hey, I’m not saying not to do a prenup, but can we pay attention to how we do it so that we do it well, so it’s not destabilize? It’s
really worth listening to her book that you sent her this podcast on his third in a series of healthy, wealthy and wise series right now. Great. Well, another top oh my gosh, I was so excited when I saw you were interviewing Meyer because I had read his book fragile power and he did not disappoint in the podcast that in which he discussed his book and his experience of working because he’s exclusively a psychologist that works in the arena of ultra high net worth and high net worth individuals. So tell me a little bit about what it was like to interview Paul, that was very exciting.
So it’s funny you said you read his book and his book of fragile power came out a few years ago and I hadn’t read it. And I thought, Wow, this would be an interesting guest to have on the podcast. But you know, he seems probably out of reach but then you know, like it’s as it’s turned out with as we do more of these episodes with really good guests. I haven’t had too many people say no, you send them a you know, a link to a few of the episodes we’ve done with the quality that we’re putting out there and the kind of guests and he said yeah, sure, let’s do it. And in fact, since that episode aired, I’ve connected him with you know, potential clients where people have listened to the episode other advisors and said, You know, I’ve got a client situation that might be right up his alley, you think and I said well, I’ll connect you. And he responds every time so all these guests, they’re real people, and they care about this field. And they are approachable. But yeah, just the whole idea that he’s talking about a minority population. You know, it’s the 1% of the 1%. And he did a lot of his initial work at the other end of the spectrum with the poorest of the poor and you know, derelicts and people you know, so he he studied the whole part about what makes it different to be such a minority but but really from this high end population. He talked about, you know, the challenges of we deal with a lot of narcissists that that stay. They talk, he talked about their isolation and their suspicion of advisors, and it really is that I’m sure, just about every FBA listening to that episode, could identify with some of the clients that they’ve been serving and what some of the difficulties are, and I think he helped point out some areas where we can be more helpful.
I was drawn to his book because there are so few books written about the experience of working with clients. In the 1% of the 1% because of, you know, boundaries around privacy and confidentiality, exactly what he said the treats we’re all people within the spaces that they’re, they don’t trust others and they’re often very isolated. I really appreciated his empathic view of narcissism. And I found that a very helpful frame where he said that it’s almost like they’ve had it’s an ego injury, of betrayal of trust. And that has the way they’ve they’ve responded to that. It’s sort of the genesis of the narcissistic traits that then show up later in life. I thought that was a very empathic deal of narcissism. I also really liked the idea of hyper agency. And obviously I’ve heard that phrase before, but and this idea that, you know, people, individuals within the 1% of the 1% have the resources to avoid any kind of discomfort. Yeah. And, and what that can result in is actually towards their ability to grow self esteem and to sort of feel comfortable in this realm because part of reaching your potential is going through discomfort and if you have the resources to consistently avoid that, then you have the ability really to thwart your growth, your personal growth, and I just liked the way he talked about this stuff because it wasn’t with a judgmental tone or a critical tone. It was more with an empathic, like how can we support you What are skills that are needed to to avoid the dark side of hyper agency so that you can help clients realize their full potential
and we talked about the fact that the hyper agency feeds on the other two, which are isolation and suspicion, right, the more you arrange things like that, because you’re suspicious, you’re isolate yourself more and it just it just becomes a self reinforcing thing. So
I also did, and I appreciated this too, because I think it’s really important to remind ourselves of this, the importance of inner multidisciplinary approach, knowing and having access to and being able to refer to behavioral scientists who really get this space, because when somebody is dealing with addiction or some of the dark side of hydrate and see where I can get access to whatever I want, and it can manifest in you know, behaviors that are not healthy, and being able to say, look, we know people in our network who we can refer you to that can really help you do that. So I really liked his emphasis.
I think a lot of us MBAs, we meet families, and we hear about some of the problems they have, and we go, whew, that’s kind of out of my league. So good luck with that. And we wanted to be able to say more than that. So he encouraged us to make sure that we start to develop connections with people in all the different fields. And as the field as the group of a community of FBAs grows, I think it’s all self reinforcing the positive way that we end up with more people that we can learn about and bring in as trusted advisors as
well. And get the space. Yeah. Well, now the other exciting development this year. Which I think for those that are listening today are probably aware of and maybe that you’re this is your first time listening to our podcasts, you’re not aware, but we have two new guests host and CO fantastic. Do they just step into this role? So let’s talk a little bit about Ambreen Balu who I loved listening to her podcast because we talked about this a little bit earlier, but the platform of podcasting really allows us to niche far and dreams guest where they were talking about communication dynamics. She interviewed a journalist from London, a former journalist who has interviewed prime ministers and presidents that have quite the background, and is now working with family businesses. So tell us a little bit about how Ambreen got brought in and your thoughts on her first podcast.
Well, Ruth, when you when you said you wanted to step back after all the years you’ve been doing this and we said, okay, well what other female voices can we think about an embryo was one of the first ones that I thought to suggest and so we let her go and find someone and she found someone really outside the box. And I love the way you know, she brought in something that didn’t seem like it made sense, like communication with a journalist, but he also does work with family businesses. And the fact that they talked about, you know, building a ferret a family narrative, and storytelling and helping families communicate, you know, about their past so that they can draw a narrative towards the future. And I think that’s really good stuff that we don’t talk about enough. We always talk about communication problems and families but but sort of like a guideline of how to help families to figure out and tell their story where they were, and then help them bring it forward. I love that. I really
like that too, because I think there’s this tendency to think that there is a family story. And what I’m bringing to guests and I can Sergeant talked about was every family has 1000 stories. The good the bad and the ugly, that make up who they are as a family and what they stand for and the importance I think for family members to this Nicola family storytelling, the connect to the identity of the family, they can see themselves in it and through the stories that are being shared. So I really appreciated that too.
And his last comment was that, you know, everywhere around the world families are very similar. They’re more similar than they are different right. So so what you learn from serving families, yes, there are different people in effect, but but the family challenges that they all have are very similar no matter where you are around.
Yeah. And interesting. So here we are speaking to someone in London, UK and has been a journalist, interviewing presidents and prime ministers. Well, this is advice. A common theme and the feedback we get when we ask the question, What’s one piece of advice is listen to listen. I thought it was interesting that that was his one piece of advice so we
can be reminded of that too often. Now, our latest episode
that just came out was our second guest host and I have two full confession here. Did not get a chance to listen to this one. So I’m going to lean on you Steve to share with the audience a bit about Yeah,
yeah, let me tell you the backstory of this. So I met a lien who was an FBA and I met her through after I got my FBA as well but I met her is something that had nothing to do with FBA. So it was in a in a coaching circle around horse, which is the you know, it’s organizational and relationship system coaching, which is a program both of us did, and we met that way and then discovered that we’re both FBA so I’ve been in contact with her for about five or six years now. And then I was trying to think of another female voice that could do a good job on these podcasts. So I decided to interview her so episode 52 is the one where I interview Aileen as my guest, but then the point was that she would then do the next episode as a guest bonus. And she brought on the woman who created that coaching program that we both had in common and they went into some really interesting stuff that I don’t know that it’s everybody’s cup of tea because it gets into really some relationship stuff, but but for some people who really want to go down that road, and I seem to be meeting more and more MBAs who want to get more into the coaching stuff. I think it’s really onpoint and I’m looking forward to Aileen I know has other good guests lined up to step in for next
year. And it’s interesting the coaching piece because we circle back to where we started on the podcast talking about Web 2.0. I think one of the you know, one of the most significant things I think that came out of what they’re writing is the ability and the importance of advisors having coaching skills in their arsenal of tools and and resources that they are able to have coaching type of conversations with clients. So sort of, it’s interesting that we end the year speaking to somebody who has deep expertise on that. So I think that’s fantastic. And I look forward to listening to that. So one that I can’t We can’t end our review of 2020 teams I’m talking about because I just I really enjoyed this podcast and I was excited when I saw he was going to be a guest of yours, Steve. I get nuggets from podcast, as I’m sure everyone listening also does. I think this podcast was the one I got the most nuggets from the one where I was pausing and taking notes and pausing and taking.
So how did you tell us a little bit about how you got in touch with David and
and how this interview came around.
David York is someone whose paths have been crossing for years. So he’s very involved with the purpose of Planning Institute. I’ve heard him speak there. He’s also involved with the Institute for Family governance, and I’ve heard him speak there. And you know, I write a blog every week and I’m always looking for things to write about and I think if I went back and looked at all the posts, the one that one person who’s inspired the most post is probably David you’re I’ve been writing about some of the wonderful things and and he shared most of them on the podcast do so. So it was perfect. And so he wrote this book called The Gift of Lift, about stewardship. And we hear about a talk about stewardship so much lately, and so I thought he would be the perfect guest and and I think he did deliver I think he really like he like you said you were taking a lot of a lot of good stuff in there so
well one that I really liked because I think entitlement, it gets a little bit of a bad rap because I think there is healthy entitlement and then there’s unhealthy entitlement. And he just said it so succinctly where he shared that healthy entitlement becomes unhealthy in the absence of responsibility. Like that. I wrote that I don’t help the entitlement becomes unhealthy in the absence of responsibility. Other nuggets that I really like because I like simple tools that we can take away and immediately sort of use with clients. So he talked about the traditional approach, you know, in wealth transition is the four DS done, divide, defer and dissipate. And then what we really want to shift our clients to is the four P’s purpose, preparation, perspective and participation. I really like that and I think these are simple, usable frameworks that we can immediately take when it comes up with a client we’ve got we’ve got something in our toolbox that we can draw from. So really appreciated those teachings he’s
really good with with those kinds of nuggets. And if you’ve ever seen he has a TED talk out there, that’s really good as well. And what I wanted to do, I think, near the end of that I went to the one that I love from him as with the three questions for the rising Gen that they should be able to know the answer to is what can I expect? What can I not expect from being part of this family and what’s expected of me? And I think I think that’s still one of my favorites. And then when you were talking about the rights and the responsibilities and the importance of balancing those, and sometimes people have too many rights and not enough responsibilities, and then I’m sure I know I’ve run into people and families risings and members especially where they have a lot of responsibilities but no rights. And he talks about the fact that sometimes on balance in the family, the rights and responsibilities are pretty balanced. But when you look at who’s hooked you know, sometimes one person has way more responsibilities, and other people are exhibiting a lot more rights and those those imbalances can also cause problems. So, lots of great things in Episode 49 to help us you know, deal with with clients facing Oh,
another another great thought leader in our space that our platform This podcast was able to give us access to in a in an easy way, accessible way. So thank you for getting him on. I really, really enjoyed that podcast. So thank you. So Steve, when we close every podcast by asking our guests, you know, what are you reading? What resources are really helping you what blogs What if I was to ask you that question for 2023 What would you share? Well,
I think you know, when we prep for this, we said we’re not going to do the traditional book recommend whenever we’re going to look at other resources. All right, so I want to talk about and I mentioned it briefly a couple of minutes ago about the purpose of Planning Institute that I’ve been a member of for the past decade now. There’s a few other FTAs who have been to the annual rendezvous that they have in Denver every summer over the years including some regulars like the I call that group my tribe and I just want to share that there with our guests sometimes FBAs finish the program and they go Yeah, I really liked this where can I get more and yes, FEC puts out great stuff. But if you really want to get into a different place with a different than an organization that talks about this stuff, and Judy Cunningham who all of our FTAs know is just assume the role of chair of the board of the purpose of Planning Institute. So we’ll put the links in the show notes
depending on who is the pioneer of the FAA. Exactly. So brought it into existence.
So there’s a lot of commonality between what they’re talking about and what we talk about here. So I just wanted to share and so Ruth you, you have something that you wanted to talk about and put on our radar. Yeah, mine
is another podcast and I am a I love listening. That’s the way I learn. I know everybody has different learning styles and mine is that I like to listen. And so a resource that I’m hoping many have heard of, but if you haven’t that I want to bring it to your attention is the wealth of wisdom podcast, and it is It was created in responding respond to a book two books actually. The first one was wealth of wisdom top 50 Questions wealthy families ask, and the second was wealth of wisdom Top Practices for wealthy families and their advisors. And the way that these books are written is each chapter is written by a different author. And and then what the author is the people that created these books on the color and Keith Whitaker had done is they taken those chapters and the authors of the chapters are no guests on their on their podcast. And because it’s so focused on family, business, family enterprise families as well. Because each chapter is unique and standalone. There is so much wisdom in these two books, and I love reading but I really love listening. So to have it on a platform that I can listen has been just immensely valuable. And for those others out there who may be similar to me because they’re listening to this podcast. Yeah, I would highly recommend the wealth of wisdom series.
So we will put links to in the show notes to both of these resources, the purpose of Planning Institute and the wealth of wisdom podcasts, and are so rude. This is where I you know, thank our guests, but I need to thank you for starting this podcast series over four years ago, and then allowing me to join you on this ride. I know you’re kind of getting off this ride to make way for some others and I’m staying on for at least a while longer. A lien and Ambreen will be stepping up for some episodes next year as we continue to try and bring more valuable content to our community. We’ve already got some great guests lined up for 2024. There’s also symposium in Calgary, May 27 to 29. And I hope to see a lot of you there.
And for well I can’t tell you how proud I am of this podcast. Steve. I think it’s become something which I could only have dreamt off when it was at the Genesis and we started four years ago so I’m really proud of where it’s come and where it’s going and excited about next year. I just want to close by thanking you. When I offered to do the podcast, I thought I was going to do a couple. So I was just so grateful when I reached out to you to say hey, would you like to also do some podcasts so thank you for you know, taking the reins and really evolving it into what it’s become today. So thank you for that. I also really want to give a shout out to Chris Rogers, Chris without this than we would not be here. He is behind the scenes making the magic and just hugely grateful to the support that Chris gives not just us in this podcast, but for every podcast and really appreciate all the hard work that goes on behind the scenes to bring this podcast to life. So thank you, Chris.
So Ruth, you’re reminding me that you had done six episodes and then you asked the people the members of the FBA Council of which I was one I think you said Does anyone want to help me out with this and I think I was the only one who put up so here we are a few years later and I’m enjoying it. I love the feedback. The feedback from this podcast is some of the most positive stuff I hear from other MBAs and non MBAs and so please continue to listen and share these episodes and some families right? Absolutely. I sent an episode to a coaching client of mine from a family who thanked me for the one and once again it was the one with David York. Anyway, listeners if you have not already subscribed please do so. Make sure you never miss any of these monthly episodes. Thanks again for joining us. On behalf of Ruth Stevelynck, I’m Steve Legler, until next time.