Getting Beyond Addiction in Enterprising Families

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let’s talk. Family enterprise explores global ideas, concepts and models. Family enterprise advisors better serve their family clients. Brought to you by family enterprise Canada, all views, Information and opinions expressed during this podcast are some of those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of family

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enterprise Canada. Hi listeners. I’m Renee Nelson, Senior Manager advisor programs here at family enterprise Canada. Before we get into this episode, I wanted to mention that the winter 2025 cohort of the FDA program recently sold out. So to keep up with popular demand, we’ve now added a new fall 2025 cohort that starts this October, which will see three out of the seven modules taking place in person in Toronto, and the remaining four modules online. If you know a professional who would benefit from taking the FDA program, please refer them before seats fill up, and for those of you interested in attending the Family Business Symposium happening may 26 through 28th on the waterfront in beautiful Halifax this year, we will also be closing the early bird discount shortly, so make sure you register as soon as possible. Hope to see you there.

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Hello and welcome to another episode of The let’s talk family enterprise podcast. My name is Steve Legler. I’m excited to be your host once again this month, we’ll be discussing a topic that affects a certain percentage of enterprising families and one that makes many advisors to such families uncomfortable, and that’s addiction. We’ve touched on mental health issues in this podcast from time to time in the past, but this month, we’ve got a wonderful guest who’s going to share some insights that will be useful to families and their advisors, and will shed some new thinking on how to deal with challenges that involve addiction of a family member, Dr Jeffrey Foote is one of the authors of the book Beyond addiction, how science and kindness help people change. We got connected through a mutual colleague, and after reading his book, I knew I wanted to have him here as my guest. There’s plenty to cover as usual, so let’s jump right in. Dr Jeff foot, welcome to the let’s talk family enterprise podcast. Thanks so much for having me. When we spoke recently, to prepare for this, I mentioned something about common knowledge, and you jumped in and said, well, in your field of dealing with addiction, unfortunately, common knowledge hasn’t necessarily evolved a lot a lot of what is thought of as common knowledge today hasn’t really changed the last 50 or 60 years. Did I get that right? Did you shed a little more light on that? Yeah, unfortunately, you

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got that exactly right. Another phrase I might use with common knowledge is common sense. You know, part of the issue here is that struggles with substance issues and compulsive behaviors are really incredibly widespread and ubiquitous. So it is something that people have lived experience with either themselves or within their family at an incredibly high rate. Because of that, there’s a lot of reaction in the world around epic and a lot of that reaction is really based on cultural norms and cultural understandings of this kind of a struggle. So to your point of common knowledge and common sense, the understanding that we share, mostly as a culture, is quite old and antiquated, and not what we would consider evidence based at this point, in terms of how could I possibly approach this, and how could I actually make an impact with somebody who’s struggling

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this way. So I guess part of the reason of writing the book was to sort of try to change that and make people aware of a fresher view, a more evidence based view of how families and how people facing this challenge can and should react,

4:06
yeah, for sure. I mean our book, which came out whenever 11 years ago, was our first book Beyond addiction, that was written for families, very specifically because of the dearth of information for families that has any basis in evidence. And one of the major things that we try to focus on in that book, in addition to a bunch of evidence based ideas for helping and by evidence based ideas, I mean ideas that have been tried and tested in research protocols and used by families and so forth, and are used in clinical settings and shown to be effective, what we were also trying To address in that book is the cultural norms, which turn out to be hugely stigmatizing. When we are talking about stigma, we are talking about behaviors that are going to get driven underground. So the number of people whose version, including mental health clinicians, whose version of what is addiction about and that that their model of that comes from, you know, the movie 28 days with Sandra Bullock, or from Dr Phil, or from intervention. These are major cultural impacts that are the ideas that people carry around in their heads about, yeah, there’s, here’s how you’re supposed to think about that, and here’s what you’re supposed to do. And unfortunately, what they have heard in those things and seen in those is pretty damaging and unhelpful,

5:28
unhelpful. And, yeah, what you said about the stigma just drives it underground and makes it even harder to surface. One of the reasons I wanted to have you on was because people who advise families often, you know, we get wind that there’s a problem, and now we feel helpless and we don’t know what to do, and so we end up doing nothing, or, as you’re suggesting, maybe we end up giving some advice that’s actually not helpful. And so that, and even the vocabulary that we use, like, is it a disease, and is the person an addict or a person suffering from addiction. Can you help us think of how we can make this more of a palatable subject when we see that it exists to make it something that we can even put on the table for discussion?

6:13
Yeah, it’s funny as you’re asking that question, I’ll ask permission to jump to the punch line and then work our way backwards, because one of the things that seems clear to me, in terms of the role that your audience gets to play is quite unique and quite powerful, and not the people who are in this role are necessarily mental health conditions. Some people are, some people aren’t, but you’re having access to internal family workings that most people don’t have access to, and one of the huge benefits of that is precisely this issue of, what is it that we’re trying to help with here, specifically, the idea that struggles with substance issues and compulsive behaviors are not one monolithic thing. So the idea of what is addiction and is it’s a disease, or it’s a brain disease, or it’s a spiritual disease, or these, these labels that, these ways of describing it that are very black and white and very one size fits all are uniquely unhelpful. They’re also uniquely untrue. It’s much more complicated and open ended than that. And as an advisor who actually gets to help direct people. And think about this, you actually have this inside track of being able to propose some ideas that are more nuanced than just, yeah, here’s what you’re supposed to do. You send them to rehab. They have a disease, they they don’t want to change, and that you can’t help them change it they don’t want to change. I could list you, you know, 20 slogans that all sound really great and compelling and so forth, and are not particularly helpful, and in this advisory role that your audience is in, you actually could help people with the nuances of this in ways that most people can’t. So back to the question of, is it a disease? Is it a it’s not one specific thing, and it’s very comforting in some ways, to think of it as a specific thing. And God bless Betty Ford for coming out in the 1980s and saying, I have struggles with alcohol. Because one of the things that that did was move it from just just this Frank moral issue that people viewed it as to what she would have described, then as a disease, and that was an elevation of this to a respectable level, right? People wouldn’t have to be in the dark about it and go underground and, you know, that kind of thing. So I think that was a major step forward and a major anti stigma step forward as matter of fact, but it’s still a limiting model. If you step back and think about the phenomenon that you see and the presentations that people in your line of work have seen in various families, they’re incredibly different. I mean, you yourself, I could probably say, How many times has there been addiction issues in people you’ve worked with? And you might say 10 times in the 50 families I worked with for 10 times and 11 families. I don’t know what the number would be. It’d be interesting to know, actually, yeah, but and then if we said, well, describe to me what’s going on with that person who’s been identified as having a problem, if we dug down into each one of those people, they would be wildly different. How that started to struggle. It’s my 14 year old. He got kicked out of school, and we don’t know what to do. He got Should we send him to Wilderness Camp? It’s my 72 year old grandfather, who’s drinking all the time, is secretly doing it, and my grandmother doesn’t care, and we’re all pulling our hair out. It’s my four year old husband, who’s the rock of the whole family. You know, who we realize is doing cocaine all the time. It’s my 23 year olds who just got out of college and they were sexually assaulted in college, and they have PTSD like, these are going to be very, very different presentations as to what is going on here and the why behind this particular set of circumstances. And to be able to step back as a starting point and go there are reasons that happen, that this is happening for this person. Their braces we use is behaviors make sense. Their behavior, even though we might not like it, and it’s causing turmoil in the family and so forth and so on. They can guarantee you, their behavior as a human being makes sense to them. It is serving some purpose. They have PTSD. They have chronic pain. Their spouse just died. They’re 14. They’re whatever the things are, and it makes sense. And can we help that family start to listen in a new way, start to slow down and take the step of, how do we understand this family member, as opposed to, what do we do to get them to knock it off right? It’s a strong impulse and understandable, and it would be nice if it was that neat and clean, and we could just pack them away to rehab, and they’d be all good, which is a very common expectation doesn’t work that way.

10:51
Okay, so let me get just go back on a couple of things. You get that all we might see five or six different cases, and they’re all different. So there’s different manifestations, but it’s so simple to look at all these as and lump them in one bucket, and we need to stop doing that. You also talked about how we as advisors who work with various family members actually have a privileged view of being able to see certain things. We see the whole system. We can pull things out and hopefully help the family members, the other family members, who often feel helpless as well, and then they shortcut to what they’ve heard of, the pop culture of we’ve got to do this and so, but you’re talking about actually slowing down and asking some questions and trying to find out what’s at the root of all this. Yeah, is that where we’re trying to drive people to, like, to slow them down and and examine it more fully, to see where it came from. It

11:51
Right? If there was one thing I would say, Can you please do the this at right out of the gates, it would be, can you slow down and listen, as opposed to take action.

12:01
Oh, okay, right. So people see it, and they jump to, we need to fix this, right? And therefore you have to do this. So there’s a lot of telling as opposed to asking, right? And I’ll

12:15
just frankly, I mean in your role as an advisor, then they come to you and go, What are we supposed to do? Because this is a this is a nightmare, an outrage, or whatever you’re gonna feel the pole of wanting to fix it also, right? Oh, geez, I’m the advisor. I’m supposed to know what to say here, like nobody knows what to say. You can ask me, I’ve been doing this for 35 years. I don’t know. What do you mean? It turned out my son is an addict, that means nothing. So if you want to help that person, let’s slow down and figure out what’s going on with them a little bit. That could be a person in the family who they trust and they can talk to, and you’re suggesting that that person just have a conversation where they say, Hey, I don’t I don’t know what’s going on. I’m assuming that there’s a lot going on for you, and it seems like there’s been a lot of drinking. And I just wanted to see if what we can what we can do to be helpful around that, there’ll be 10 different things we could do to to write with it under the heading of slowing down and listening. So it’s not just literally having a conversation, necessarily, but yes, that first impulse to make it go away, slash, fix it, as opposed to, can we understand what’s happening here? Because we could fix this in 10, in nine out of 10 ways that aren’t actually helpful to that person, right?

13:36
So we talked last time about the fact that I really liked your secondary title, your subtitle of the book, which is how science and kindness help people change. So you alluded earlier to the evidence based stuff. That’s the science part. And now you’re getting to the kindness part as a so it’s the listening to the people and giving them the space to explain things, as opposed to jumping in and telling them what to do and fix them.

14:04
Yeah, and it’s a funny thing that the science and the kindness start to become one in the same, because it turns out kindness is a evidence based idea, and listening to somebody is a kind thing to do, and listening to somebody is probably the most motivational thing we can do. And when it comes to substance use issues, trying to help enhance motivation for change is probably the most important thing that’s going to happen. So do I have ways that I can approach this? And it turns out, yes, I have ways that I can approach this that are evidence based, meaning they’re more likely to work than something else, listening, eliciting information, as opposed to confronting and demanding change is an evidence based idea, right? Listening and hear you out and trying to understand where you’re coming from would probably fit most people’s definition, also of being kind to another human right. That’s how most of us have been experienced in interaction with another human. That guy really listens to me. Wow, that was really something purchase. That guy came in and started to tell me, you know, what I needed to do, and how messed up it was that I was doing what I was currently doing. All that is not so kind,

15:19
right? And so the next time you see that person, if it’s the person who listened to you or the person who was yelling at you, which one are you most likely going to go and speak with again, if you have the choice correct,

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and if we’re talking about an issue that’s going to take a while to to start to shift and and move forward in a positive way, sort of the the Most important thing I can hope for is that I can help you. Want to talk about this. Want to be involved. Increase your motivation to move forward on this in some way, as opposed to shutting you down, having you try to avoid me and this. You know, that’s a very easy path to do that second path.

15:58
And so you the model that you use is called the invitation to change model. So I guess if you’re inviting someone to change if you do it in a kind easy going way, as opposed to yelling at them and telling them what to do, you’ll have better chance of success. So can you give us a little bit more about this invitation to change mod, sure, it’s something

16:22
we have developed over the last bunch of years through working with hundreds and now, actually 1000s of families. And it started with some evidence based ideas that came out of the University of New Mexico, guy named Bob Myers called craft, which is makes no sense to anybody outside the mental health field, community reinforcement and family training, again, makes no sense the words, but what it means is, how do we help you develop a life that would compete with substances and be meaningful to you? How do I as a family member interact with you in ways that are going to not send you underground, but are likely to help pull you forward? We added a bunch of tools to that, a bunch of tools from that some folks here will have heard about from motivational interviewing, which is a fairly widespread approach, set of ideas, set of ideas about listening and interacting verbally with people that are quite powerful and pretty straightforward, and then a new set of ideas on top of those two from Something called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy or act, and that’s a set of ideas about in the helping role, for instance, as a family member. How do I how do I hang in there? How do I decide to stay connected, even though this is painful, does the pain of dealing with this mean I have to get the heck out of here or make you change? Or can I hang in there and keep connected and keep moving forward in a positive way, even though this is frustrating and painful? So there are a number of tools within this approach. But as you said, the invitation is part of the is part of the title of the whole approach. And really what we were just talking about earlier, about how do I understand your behavior, can I start with the assumption that your behavior does make sense, that it’s serving some purpose. People don’t repeat behavior over and over again unless it’s giving them something. We use the metaphor of a hot stove. People don’t put their hands on a hot stove more than once because it gives them nothing, but they do heroin or drink or smoke a bunch of marijuana because it gives them something. Again, I may not like what it gives them, and I may feel like it’s destroying other things in their functioning and so forth, so on, but it’s still giving them something. So if I can not come in from the approach of, you’ve got to just stop this, but from the perspective of, I get why this is happening, or I’d like to know why this is happening. I’m not here to litigate it out of you and to make the argument that this is ridiculous. I just want to understand actually it’s a very compassionate kind way to interact with another person that’s respectful and that is most likely to keep them in the game with you, and to think about change instead of leaving right

19:02
and in a family context, you would think that the people in the family are probably among the top of the list for each person to be those who are willing to go and do that and to provide that connection. And so you talk about family members actually being helpers and part of the solution, and how that is important that most, is it that most people left to themselves, going through it alone, have a tougher time than when, when the family around in the supportive

19:33
yeah and we yes and we know families are one of the most powerful motivators for people. We also know the families are one of the most neglected sets of voices in this whole equation. And again, the unique role that you all have in being able to acknowledge the family and acknowledge how difficult this is and acknowledge the importance of their role in this possible change process is very powerful for them. They really family inclusion in any kind of change process around substances is wild. It’s WILDLY NEGLECTED, and families are really just not part of the equation. They’re told to go to things like Al Anon meetings and detach. They’re told that they’re enable errors and codependent. And all these labels that are that have just become really stigmatizing labels for family members, which makes them then not want to be involved anymore, because the whole thing is still like a big mess that they’re being blamed for also,

20:28
right? So you’re saying the family is an underutilized resource, and that a lot of the traditional stuff that we’ve been hearing is actually scaring people away, who are possibly some of the most important people to help effectuate the change or invite the change with the person,

20:47
incredibly well said, yes, there are probably our most powerful resource, if for no other reason, then they’re never going to quit and they’ll be there forever. So, sheesh, if I had to have a workforce that I wanted to hire to help in this job. That would be it, if it was defined that way, never going to quit, never going to give up. Highly motivated, that’s a good

21:09
group. So, you know, we’re talking about invitation to change for the person who has who’s suffering from the addiction. But I think there’s another invitation here, and it’s the invitation for the other family members to step up for some of these roles. And then going through this book, they have all kinds of tools and ideas to help them figure out just how to do that they do.

21:32
And there’s the other part of the model, besides understanding the person who’s struggling, is increasing your awareness of yourself. So it’s not a model that’s just saying how to help this other person. It’s saying a major part of how to help another person is to is to help yourself, is to include yourself in this process, to be part of it, to be aware and respectful of yourself as well, and that you don’t have to detach and walk away as the only route to taking care of yourself. That’s been the that’s been the cultural message. You need to step away, you need to take care of yourself. That’s actually not true. You can not step away. You can stay connected and still take care of yourself and still have compassion for yourself in this process. And most family members, they don’t actually want to step away. That doesn’t that message doesn’t make any sense to them. Like this. I love this person. They’re driving me crazy, but I love them, and I’d like to help them. So why would I want to step away? Or why would I want to use tough love and get them out and all those kind of things like, not only do those not work, but that’s not what I feel like doing. It’s a set of strategies that help them stay connected in that way, to their loved one and to themselves. And it includes a bunch of communication strategies and how to how to have conversations without getting defensive and and that kind of thing that are quite practical tools. But I think it’s really grounded in, can I understand this other person, and can I understand myself as part of this process. So when,

23:01
when I was going through the book, and at one point I started thinking, this is not just about addiction. I mean, this is a family communication, helper kind of book that even if there’s no addiction present, I was thinking of families that I know, where you know, some of the if there’s estrangement or distance between a mother and one of her children, and how they are struggling with, how can I try and get some, you know, get my texts answered or get my calls answered? And then even some of the ideas in the book, even absent addiction, there’s lots of good stuff.

23:41
Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, the beyond addiction was the one we wrote 11 years ago that was for families, and much more extensive discussions about what is this phenomenon of substance struggles that people go through, you know, neurologically speaking and motivationally speaking, and what are the ways people understand this, historically and now and so forth, and then also the treatment system, and how do you access treatment, and what is good treatment and what is not so good treatment. So it was sort of a how to navigate this guide in an evidence based way. The thing that we wrote that came out two years ago, which is beyond addiction workbook, is really more the point of what you’re saying, which is it’s a smaller, more concise set of ideas and exercises around the invitation to change practical tools, practices and so forth, or how to implement these, these strategies with someone you’re trying to help. That’s essentially how to be a better helper. And as you said, it doesn’t have to be around, specifically around substance issues. It could be, I’m trying to help my son navigate through high school bullying, and I’m trying to whatever the thing I’m trying to think about finding new jobs and what happens when we do that. You know, it could be any number of change processes that these ideas are helpful for us.

25:00
So it’s anything where there’s family members who want to help each other and maybe aren’t sure how, or it can give them ways to if they tried something and it didn’t work, it’ll give them other ideas of what, what they can try and

25:16
stay Yeah, yes, exactly. And again, in a more compassionate evidence based way. Both of those things matter. You know, the combat bringing the compassion to it helps the medicine go down, helps change process happen. And the evidence based ideas are like, yeah, it’s not. You’re not just not making stuff up. Like, these are strategies that actually work. You know, really help someone open up or not be defensive, or consider things more realistically, like those things really matter when you’re trying to help a family, you know, help themselves through these things. So

25:50
between 2014 when the first book came out, and then the workbook in 2022 Did you see a lot of evolution in the treatments that are available, or what people are are trying, and has the science been advancing as well? I’d

26:08
like to say in the treatment field that I had seen a lot of change, but I would not be speaking truthfully if I said that it’s incremental. It’s small changes. Remember being at a conference in the mid 90s, and having a very, very senior researcher saying, don’t despair. You know, change is happening. It’s so much change since I’ve been in the field, and they’ve been in the field for, you know, since 1975 I just think unfortunately that that change process has been slow over this many years. And, I mean, I think, though, that part of what we’re about to have a revised edition of the first book Beyond addiction that’s coming out the next couple months. And we revised that along the lines of including ideas about things like overdose, which has become a hugely problematic issue due to the fence hole, and some ideas around that, the idea of CO occurring disorders. So if you’re sort of trying to help a family and they’re trying to understand what’s going on with their loved one, if you approach addiction treatment providers, often, what you’ll get is one version of reality, which is, yeah, if this is addiction, and once that’s gone, everything will be fine. And for most people, that that’s not true, the CO occurrence of other very, very impactful psychiatric issues is very high in people who are struggling with substance use. So that doesn’t mean everybody, but that does mean we’re very likely to find pretty significant depression or some sort of anxiety disorder like obsessive compulsive disorder, or the prevalence of Frank PTSD is, you know, in this 40% zone, first people start to listen. So these are other life altering psychiatric struggles that people have that is not just about by drinking. So we try to talk a lot about that, because an awareness of that is really important again, in seeing the person as a whole person, which is going to make them want to change more. If I’m being seen as a whole person, and not just this thing, your box you’re putting me in because I’m a drunk or I’m an addict, or I’m a whatever, like, I drink too much, and I have really bad depression, and I, you know, and can we, can we get this all on the table? Because I’m actually a human being, as it turns out.

28:22
I’m just thinking of the word humanizing the thing, right? As opposed to making it your bad, you have to change, which so often is the first reaction, yeah. And I imagine that in some families, you know, different family members would react differently. Let’s say dad might say you have to change or else, and mom might have a very different attitude. And how can we help to make more space for different viewpoints that are a little more human and kind actually probably have a much better chance of success?

28:57
Yeah, and in your role, I mean, it personally depends on, I’m sure you have, you all have very many different types of relationships with different types of families also, right? So one side doesn’t fit all there either. But to the degree that you are able to have any sort of a moderator voice within that family to say, You know what? Like we can affirm the fact that dad has one view and mom has another view that makes a lot of sense. This is really scary, and you know your neighbor guy of an overdose last year, and you’re terrified your son’s going to and Plus, he’s flushing that money down the toilet, blah, blah, blah, blah, all those things that are causing big reactions. We can validate that that’s happening through a trusted advisor role, you know, right? And that can allow people to then take a breath and pause and step back and go, Okay, can we take some reasonable steps instead of some reactive steps here,

29:49
right back to what you were saying. Slow things down. Help them. Slow things down. Help them ask some more questions, as opposed to jumping right into fix it mode, right,

30:00
right. We just found out that he got a DUI, and we need to get him into rehab tomorrow. What can you? Can you find us a place? Yeah, okay, so in your role as an advisor, you may feel like I don’t have a lot of leeway here, and I gotta comply with their requests. All right, another version of that would be, you know, what could we do a consultation with an expert and get their advice about what would be, because you want to send them to rehab, because that’s what Dr Phil says, right? And come to find out, not helpful, lot of unhelpful advice come in there. And can we, can we think through some alternatives and some solutions here that are not just reactive and one size fits all, we may say, ultimately, yeah, let’s try red. That might be a good path, but it’s one of 10 paths. Okay, there isn’t an answer to these things, all

30:55
right. Jeff, this has been very informative and very useful, I’m sure. And unfortunately, we need to start to wrap up now. So as usual, we have two final requests for all our guests before we go. First is to if you could please give us a book recommendation, and the second is one piece of advice from someone who works with families to others who work with families and to the families themselves. So can we start with a book recommendation? Sure,

31:20
asides from our fabulous books, you mean, I’ll give you a couple. One is a book. It’s a tiny, little, thin book, so it’s the kind of thing that you could slip to a family and go, this is a query, quick read. It’ll be really helpful. It’s a book called The Art of empathic understanding. Actually, I’m sorry that’s the subtitle. The title is called listening. Well, okay, and it’s by William Miller, came out in 2008 18. He’s the, one of the inventors of this idea of motivational interviewing, that whole approach, okay, brilliant, concise. Guy’s been writing about it for 40 years, and it’s the kind of thing you can hand to a family member and they and they can read it overnight, and they can go, Okay, I’m going to try this. This is helpful. This is a new way to listen and talk

32:05
Cool. Excellent. And you have another book, if you’re talking about how to navigate

32:09
this substance abuse treatment system, and you’re like trying to figure that out for yourself as an advisor, and just sort of want more education. I do think beyond addiction is a great book for that. But there’s another book written by a colleague, Nick inside rehab, is the name of the book written by a woman named Ann Fletcher. And just a discussion of the treatment industry is a little bit scathing of the treatment industry, but it also offers lots of tips about questions for families to ask for treatment providers and that kind of stuff. So I think it’s very empowering for family members in that way. Okay,

32:37
great. Thank you for those, we’ll put links to those in the show notes, as well as to the two books that you authored. Last thing then is just one piece of advice that you can leave us all as someone who works with families, to others who also work with families, and to the families themselves. I had one

32:54
piece of advice in my hand. I swap it out for another piece of advice that just comes to my mind, which is really about this whole idea of stigma and kindness like stigma is a very, very unkind path beyond one’s own head. It’s also very, very understandable around topics that are scary or to us. For most of us, anything to do with substance related issues is for most families who are going to come to you guys around this topics, they’re scared and upset and angry, and they’re going to want answers and black and white answers, and that’s what stigma is, is a set of black and white answers that put everybody in the same box. So just be able to help remember that for yourself, that this struggle is a highly stigmatized one in these cultures that we’re in, and you don’t actually have to buy into that idea. It’s just people struggling to figure out their lives, and they happen to have a route that they’ve taken that kind of works for them, which is, I drink a lot, or I smoke much pot and like, that’s all it is. And sometimes it’s lethal, and sometimes it’s not, most of times it’s not, but it’s just human behavior, you know. And to help a family with that, and to help ourselves with that is compassionate and is much more useful way to be walking down this path.

34:06
Beautiful. The word compassion was was coming to the tip of my tongue, just as you were, you were saying. Dr. Jeffrey Foote, thank you again for joining us and sharing your views and your expertise and your insights with our audience. Bucha, listeners, if you haven’t already subscribed, please do so make sure to never miss any of these monthly episodes. Thanks again for joining us. I’m Steve Legler, until next time,

34:35
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