The Best of 2021 (A Retrospective)

Let’s Talk Family Enterprise Podcast Episode #30
Guests/Hosts: Ruth Steverlynck and Steve Legler

In a departure from the usual format, this episode features both of our regular hosts, Ruth Steverlynck and Steve Legler, acting as both host and guest. They decided to look back at some of their favourite episodes from 2021 and discuss a few of their greatest takeaways in the hopes of bringing back good memories and encouraging listeners to go check out episodes they may have missed along the way.

Let’s talk family enterprise explores global ideas, concepts and models that help family enterprise advisors better serve their family clients, brought to you by family enterprise Canada. All views Information and opinions expressed during this podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of family enterprise Canada.

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The let’s talk family enterprise podcast. My name is Steve Legler. And it’s great to be your host once again. Actually, I’m the guest this month, not the host because Ruth CyberLink is the host or maybe I’m the host and Ruth is my guest. We’ve decided to co host and have us both on the same episode for the first time, and I know I’m looking forward to hearing the result. We’re recording this just before Christmas for release in January 2022. And we wanted to look back at some of the episodes we recorded and released over the course of 2021 It seems like only yesterday during an FDA council meeting that Ruth asked if anyone wanted to help her out and guest post some episodes of this podcast that she had created out of thin air. And here we are in Episode 30 And we’ve been more or less alternating hosting duties the past couple of years. We’ve gotten a lot of ground to cover so let’s say hi to our guests and kick things off with Sterling thanks for joining us today welcome to the let’s talk family enterprise podcast

same guest or host which isn’t I don’t know what it doesn’t matter. This is so exciting. I’m so happy to be doing this with you. And I think just speaking personally here, as we were preparing for this, I really listened to a number of the podcasts that we’ve done over the past year and was so struck by the nuggets that we get from our guests. It was really I think when you’re doing them on a regular basis, you perhaps forget and lose sight of the fact that there are so many great nuggets. So I think our hope today is to draw out some of those nuggets. So those of our FBA community that maybe haven’t had a chance to listen to all the podcasts will either have their appetite whetted to go listen to them, or at least have the short circuit to what the highlights were from some of the podcasts from this year. Absolutely. Yeah. So Steve, I wanted to start with one of your guests who I love to be honest, I had never heard of and I really enjoyed the podcast and that was Dr. Moira summers. Do you remember her

Yes. So I met Moira in Denver at a PPI meeting. And she wasn’t speaking she was just one of the attendees and you know how they have these ducks treat dinners where you get put in groups of people and you go out for dinner together and she was at the same one as mine, as I was and she was from Winnipeg and most of the other people were American and we ended up talking about curling and all kinds of other stuff. And then I crossed paths with her again in another group. And I read her book, and I said she’s got a great angle on all this family business stuff as a psychologist and so that’s why I said I know that that she has studied this whole idea. Her book is called advice that sticks and how many of us as FBAs are working with families and we’re all trying to figure out how do we get these families to actually sort of take our advice

to talk about a couple of things. So just for our listeners PPI is the purposeful planning Institute, which is a fantastic organization. And you actually one of the podcasts was interviewing John Warneke, who founded the purposeful planning Institute. So back to Dr. Summers, that advice that sticks. What I found really interesting was the analogy that she drew between the medical profession. So doctors meeting with patients and financial advisors. I thought that was so interesting.

Well, I love that too, because the good news is when you look back, they have actually changed the way they trained doctors now. And so making sure that the doctors don’t just have the knowledge but also the skills to get it delivered in a way that people will act on it. They figured out that they needed to do that and it feels like our profession is maybe a decade or two behind them. And hopefully we can learn something from that that really there are ways to teach people some of these other important skills. And I think you know we’re preaching to the choir here of FBA is because that’s the whole reason people take the FBA program is to get better at this part of it.

Yes, she do that sort of analogy comparison between giving recommendations to a patient and then the patient actually taking on those recommendations and acting on them. And how as advisors were really good at imparting our knowledge, but we don’t actually very often think she actually said it’s like 10% of knowledge actually gets acted on so I thought that was so interesting. So she did talk about sort of the curse of knowledge and the dark side of being an expert, which I thought I found that interesting.

Yeah, the part where where you’re such an expert you think you know everything and then so there you just tell people and they should be happy to hear this from such a great expert. So of course, they’re just gonna go and do exactly what you said. But, you know, there’s ways to communicate that information in a way that it’s more likely to be followed. And then I see in your notes here that you sent me about you want to talk about her the difference between communication and connection and I was like that was like, oh, wait a sec. This is big, because it reminded me of that expression. You know, they don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. So if you come off as some aloof expert who thinks they know everything, even if you tell them something that’s really good for them to do they’re not likely to follow it because you haven’t taken the time to connect with them. Yeah,

I mean, I’m a big you know, communication is the key. But actually having listened to the podcast again, I really listened to it in preparation for today. It really reminded me of the importance of connection like communication in and of itself is not enough. We need to really be able to connect with our clients. So that when we do in part, our wisdom and knowledge and all the expertise that we have, because we’re connected to them and have a relationship with them, they’re gonna listen and act on on the advice. So I really like that.

Yeah, that’s the idea. So let’s switch over and let me tell you had a two part episode with Dr. Lee house. Nicole. I love doTERRA. And that was fantastic. Because she actually crowdsource the questions that you asked She asked you to get the questions from the FBAs. And on a number of occasions she was talking about how great the questions were. So that that was well done.

Yeah, so what happened there? Steve was I I’ve known Dr. Houser for a long time. And what I really like about Lee when she’s got the depth of experience, she has been doing this work for a long, long time, but she’s actually a great presenter too. So she’s very engaging when she talks. So I reached out to her I said, Look, you know, we do this podcasts and I would love to, you know, have a conversation with you for the benefit of our audience, the family enterprise advisor audience, and she said, I’ll do it on one condition. I said, Okay, what’s your condition said I have no interest in being a talking head. I want to know what your audience is struggling with. I want them to be the source of the questions, not you as the interviewer. So I said, Okay, fine. Let’s give this a try. And you know, what was amazing, Steve, we got so many great questions, and that’s why we had to do two podcasts. We probably could have done four. We literally had to limit the questions. So it was a great idea. And again, just you know, highlights the type of person that Lee is and that she really is in service of the audience and service of the client. She doesn’t want to just be a talking head.

So in part one, the notes that I took what I listened to it over the weekend was how she really went from talking about the rising generation and how important it is to develop their capacity to to lead and their readiness. And then on the other side for the leading generation, to help the founders go from success to significance. I really liked that and that and that’s what we face all the time with with our family clients. Right then what we need to bring for the family depends on which generation they’re in. And we need to be able to kind of help on both of these generations.

Even just the language success to significance A, that’s language that I adopted after that into after speaking with Dr. Hausner because I think one of the struggles with letting go for wealth creators is who are they going to be if they’re not the leader of this business? If they’re not the head of the family, if they’re not the the they don’t have the identity in the community that the business gives them? And so being able to talk about what is that next step that brings significance to your life? I think that language in and of itself was really powerful and really powerful language to use with wealth creators. I also loved how we really talked about treating the business as a business. So almost taking emotional decision making out of this equation when we’re talking about the next generation. What are what is the business need in order to thrive and succeed and continue making money and doing what businesses should do? And by framing it like that, it’s not that the family members, the rising generation members maybe don’t have what’s needed is what is the business need? And then how do we help the family members that want to work in the business, get what the business needs? And I thought that was a really good frame, you know, framing it through the lens of what does the business need rather than what does the family member want?

Jen, she was big on like, not having like an automatic Oh, you’re a member of the family. So you’ve got a job to have a free ride. That was

yeah, don’t let the family business be the family welfare state. Yeah.

There was there was one question that that I liked and it was about who does the advisor have to be versus what the advisor has to do? Because that’s kind of language I use a lot and talking about how the job how her job as an advisor has changed over the many decades she’s been doing it and the one that I really hadn’t anticipated was she’s talking about the fact that when she started, there were no family business courses in universities. There weren’t as many family business centers so so the whole field has evolved and the people who are entering the field have many more places where they can go and get resource resources, and get ready for roles in the family business and as as consultants to family businesses as well. Everything has evolved a lot and still has a long way to go. But we’ve come a long way in during the span of her career.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, when you think about even the family office model, Steve, like I know, that’s an area that you’re very involved with to we 10 years ago, hardly anybody was talking about family offices, and now it seems like they’re everywhere. So I completely agree is the field has really grown. My favorite part of that podcast, Steve was when I asked Lee sort of for advice for our audience or FBA audience, and she said, Don’t become the answer machine. Yeah, I love that was great. And we let’s go back to one of your podcasts. So sure, somebody that you interviewed, that guy whose name I’m hearing more and more of in the field is Josh Baron, and you interviewed him? Because he had co authored the family business handbook with Harvard, which I think is a must read for any family enterprise adviser, but in your podcast, he shared a couple of models with you the four rooms model the five rights of owners. I mean, he really shared a lot but what were your what were your sort of big takeaways from your interview with Josh he had a lot to

say. Yeah, I love that book because it just in a simple way explained a lot of things. And I had happened to co present a couple of years ago on a panel and it was an online thing, but over in Asia, and, and I was on and I did a presentation then Josh did one and then people are asking questions to Dr. Josh and Mr. Steve, it was pretty funny. But so this was a great chance. To connect with him again, when this book came out. And just between you and me, don’t you find it’s kind of easy now to get guests to come on this podcast when you send them a few links to the ones that we’ve done with some of the great guests. Everyone says yes, so

that’s really good guests.

So the four rooms model, I remember seeing something that they had written Josh and Rob lashed out about this a few years ago, and they’ve modified it since then. And they change the configuration of the rooms to put the family room on the side. So he covers how you know there’s the board there’s the management and then the on the side of the owners. And then on the side, you have the family and the family members. They can come into each of those other three but there’s not an automatic entry and you need to be purposeful in determining who is allowed into which room I just really liked the model and thought it gave a good visual for people to talk about this with family clients.

What I really appreciated about your interview with him was he talks about the four room model lying side by side with a three circle model. So it’s not an either or they’re actually models that you can use side by side. And you know, Steve, I know you know this, I find models extremely helpful for framing conversations that need to happen. So the more models tools, frameworks that we have as advisors, and the better able we are to have those sort of deeper conversations with our clients. So I really liked that it was another model, not a model to replace the three circle model, but one to sort of be side by side. The other thing I really appreciated about the interview was, I completely agree that the ownership circle is often the most underserved and overlooked and yet it’s where all the power serves. So I really liked that they’re sort of putting a laser focus on what does it mean to be an owner and what are the rights of owners? So I love the five rights to and I think if people that are listening to this podcast, are working with family owners, this would be one that I would definitely go back to and really listen to.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I agree with you ownership is the most neglected circle, but it seems like lately these last couple of years, more and more people are talking about it and I welcome that and just about you’re loving the fact that there’s a model. I always love when I can point to something in a book or from someone else to say hey, let’s look at this. So it’s not just oh, what did Legler come up with now that he’s going to talk to us about no no, I’m, I’m standing on the shoulders of all these other people in the in the industry that are all working to you know, crack the same code and figure out the same thing and we’re learning from each other. We’re sharing with each other. And if we can help get people to understand more about ownership. I think that’s good because the old automatic, you know, oh, it’s a family business. So you’ll come work in the business. lately. There’s a lot more well, I’ll just be an owner and I’ll be on the board and all around the family council. So not everyone, like just working in the business is not the default that it used to be to becoming a competent owner. But there hasn’t been enough written about what do you what are the rights of the owners and the five rights model that he has in that book is also stuff worth worth checking out.

We had another session that was purely on ownership because our dear friend and colleague Wendy sage, Hayward, and Gaia, have written a book called ownit. And I had the privilege of speaking with both of them about their new book. So you’re right Steve. There is more stuff, more material more books being written more articles being written on this really important circle the the ownerships are cool.

Let’s switch to it to the one that you did episode 24 with Scott epic, I didn’t know who this man was until I heard this episode. And then it’s like I have a man crush on this guy, because he’s got such a diverse background. He was a law professor. He became a Buddhist priest. And then he did like a lot of people that I know they married into a business family and kept doing what they were doing until eventually they got a calling into, you know, being more important within that family and then also advising other families. And so he talks about the family focused office as opposed to the family office. And I love that because, you know, he talks about in part of it that was that he was talking to family office employees. And he’d asked them well, what does the family think? About this? And then the employee would say, Well, I’ve never met the family member. And I was like, Oh my God, there’s so many of so many cases like this, where the people who are working ostensibly for the family because they’re working for a family office, but they have no connection, no relationship with the family members themselves. Which brings us back to the connection piece we were talking about, with Dr. Summers.

So important. You know, it’s funny you say you have a man crush on him. I really listened to the podcast again in anticipation of our time together today. I was cringing a little bit because I was so gushing. When I introduced Scott on the podcast, but it he I think is such an amazing thinker. And maybe it is because he brings these different lenses including being, you know, this Zen priest lens to which is very contemplative and meditative in his thinking, but you know, he has a family member, he’s an academic, he’s a practitioner, so I love that he brings all those different lenses. You know, I really related when he said, when he shared that story that you’ve just shared to Steve I met an individual recently whose business card said, president of XYZ family office. And the first question I asked of course, was, oh, you know, how many family members does your family office look after? And his response was, I don’t know. I’ve never met the family. And I said, well, sorry helped me understand like, you’re you’re the head of a family office. He said, Well, we just call it that because that’s what everyone’s calling it now.

And they’re calling it that without knowing what it actually potentially could be and I think should be Yeah,

and you know what Scott in that podcast, he, when I questioned him about family focus, he said he’s being a little bit provocative, but it’s intentional, is to get us to think as either employees or family office or advisors who advise to family offices. You know, are we really thinking about the family? Do we know this family are we putting the relationship with the family front and center? Or is it just about tax and compliance and risk mitigation and stewardship of the financial wealth? So I think he said, I’m being provocative when I call it the family focused office.

I like the fact that there’s a part where he talks about how the staff are, they fear the family, like they’re scared because this is these are family members who ultimately probably could fire them. Right. So they’re, they’re scared of them. They don’t know them very well. They know them enough to be scared of them. But then at the same time, the family fears the staff in many cases, right, because the staff know what’s going on and they’re in control and some of these owners who don’t recognize the rights that come with their ownership, they feel subservient to these people who are supposed to be working for them. So it’s just it’s crazy how these relationships are neglected or not thought through or not developed in a way that it seems obvious to you and I that they shouldn’t be but that’s far from the norm.

I know. He has so many great nuggets in our chat together. Another one that I really appreciated was when he said that the one thing that people of wealth need more than anything else is somebody to be honest with them. And how when a system is there aren’t relationships at the front and center. There’s no connection going back to what Dr. Somers said, and is operating from fear. The output of that is there’s no candor and honesty and transparency. And the danger of course is you end up being sycophantic and just telling people what they want to hear and really your utility as an advisor is so compromised if you’re not able to speak the truth and what you honestly are seeing, so I just really appreciated him sharing that particularly because he comes from running a private Trust Company, which is essentially like a family office. So

he talked about the trusted company versus the Trust Company. So again, a little play on words to make it provocative. And make people think, and I love the fact his piece of advice was you are your own instrument. And I was like, oh my god, that is yeah, that that is true. And so we need to work on ourselves to develop our ability to work and do this craft that we do and to model

that we’re asking you to do, you know, be self reflective and you know, be know yourself. I think in order for us to be able to sort of help clients do that we need to do start by doing it with ourselves. So absolutely. So one of the one of the podcasts of course that were was my favorite was because I worked with David was your your discussion and chat with David Bentall. It was a great discussion. He was talking about

David’s book, I had listened to it at the audio book on the way home from my cottage the day before. So it was all just fresh and I was so happy when I heard his art when you turn on an audiobook sometimes they’re read by the author and sometimes they’re read by someone else he had done his own which which was good because if it’s someone you know, and it’s a different voice and kind of what a route and so I really enjoyed hearing from him, and he is so he’s come so far. Like he’s he’s very humble, but then he admits in his book, how impatient he was as a young man, and how he realized that that’s that’s something that happens in families when the rising generation aren’t patient enough and don’t have the EQ to deal with the frustration that comes with sometimes being asked to wait your turn.

Just you know, emphasizing the honesty part. You know, the very start of the podcast with you, Steve, when you asked about the genesis of the book and why he had written it. He shared that he been on a flight and had just come back was coming back from two family meetings that hadn’t gone so well. And I just so appreciated his honesty because how many of us are find ourselves in those situations where we are either leaving a family meeting or participating in a family meeting and it just doesn’t go so well. And I really appreciated that he he was honest about that because I know that has happened to me and you know, I then he did what we all should do which is reflect on how can we do it better next time what is needed to make this better and and that was really the genesis of why he wrote the book dear younger me. Well, yeah,

cuz he had seen in some of the rising generation members, some EQ some behaviors and attitudes that he realized, oh my God, that’s what I was like, and what have I learned in the intervening decades? And how can I help these younger people who are walking in the same footsteps that I walked in and I’ve learned something? How can I start to impart some of that wisdom? And I love it when people who have been down the road are trying whatever they can to share with the younger people like you know, I made these mistakes, maybe you don’t have to, you know, bang your head against the wall as much as I did. And maybe you can learn from my path, and that I love the fact that he was sharing that.

And he talks about treats and I think he says this in the podcast with you that the book really talks about traits that are relevant for all leaders. Whether you’re leaving a non family firm or public company, charitable organization. These are traits that are really important. But then he talks about why they’re especially important in family enterprises, because relationships matter.

Yeah, it’s, it’s a we know he was talking about some heroes, and you know, that he had like Winston Churchill and Vince Lombardi and he said, those are still heroes of mine, but they wouldn’t necessarily have been good leaders of a family business and Steve Jobs. He was a great leader, but you know, put them in a family business where the relationships are important. There’s other traits and other skills that people need to work on to be able to survive in that environment. When we’re all those family relationships are at stake. At one point he said, Look, you know, if I have a fight with my dad, I only have one dad. Exactly. So it’s so there’s so much more pressure on people to make sure this goes right. So that’s why you have to be careful in selecting the right leaders who have those types of relationship skills, not just the x’s and o’s and the numbers to run the business. You really need to have someone who has these traits and he talks about the wall. And he talks about reading biographies of people who who have those traits. And so he got that whole idea about reading biographies from his father, so that was like a double whammy. Yeah, right.

My other big takeaway from your interview with him, and you know, I’ve heard it before yourself, don’t people hard on ideas, but I really liked the way David framed it as you stand side by side together to tackle the problem rather than tackling each other. And I can see myself using that. In I can see a situation where I would just be able to draw quickly from that stand side by side to tackle the problem rather than tackling each other. Because I think families default to tackling each other rather than you know, tackling what is it the what is the issue that we need to be looking at right now rather than attacking each other? So I really appreciated that.

And just in tying different episodes together that you talked about, Lee Hausner saying don’t become the answer machine. And David was talking about you don’t have to have all the answers. And when he was young, he believed he was supposed to have all the answers so we acted as if he had the answer is even when he didn’t have them. And that’s, you know, the questions are more important than the answers in the end.

I think there’s one theme that comes through from all the podcasts that we both done, is that, you know, expertise is really important and our technical skills and what we bring to our clients, when they hire us is really important. But when you’re dealing with a family enterprise is just not enough. You need to care you need to connect, you need to stay in that place of curiosity, where they get to know and understand and know that you can’t possibly solve all the problems that family enterprises are facing, but you sure do know people and you can put together a team and you can build resources to support the family as they work through all the different areas that they’re tackling. So I think that’s been a common theme in our podcasts.

Yeah. So we’ve got one more we want to touch on is the one you did with Melissa Mitchell Blitch who is someone I’ve known for a number of years and I have a lot of respect for her as well because she’s one of those people who went from being a CPA to a psychologist. So she’s really coming at this from different angles and one

story that she shared about why she did that, that I will never forget that story. So she talked about that. I think this is something all of us have experienced at some point. She talked about being asked to execute on an estate plan, and doing a brilliant technical job and fulfilling every ask that the wealth holder had he was actually on his deathbed and his instructions were I want to be able to control everything from the grief, go and make sure that that happens in my estate plan. And, you know, Melissa shared that story and realized I did everything the client wanted me to do but I did so much harm to the family. And that was her point of saying you know what, there’s got to be something more to this work because relationships matter, because there are human beings whose lives are impacted by this. And that was what drove her into becoming a psychologist. But we don’t all have to be psychologists because she says no, there are tools that we can no matter what discipline we’re bringing to this work that we can draw from to help clients and that’s really what her book is about. So we don’t have to be psychologist to help. We can use some of the tools that she shares.

Yeah, there’s lots of different I just broke down a few of them like the three R’s, the roles, responsibilities and rights. It’s, you know, as you’re going into a meeting with a family, grab her book and read that chapter before you go in there. And then you’ll instantly have something you can rely on that you can go and have something that the family will be able to use and remember and the 3x You know, being fair, firm and making sure you have that balance,

friendly that you’re not speaking the truth and if you’re too firm then relationships aren’t aren’t looked after attended to. So yeah, it’s a great little

meme. There was the one about you know, help is helpful until it isn’t and the the tendency for people to want to be over helpful and I know I talk about that a lot. Just just it’s nice when people say please help me and then you can feel superior to them while you give them your help. And they should be so thankful. But eventually when you’re trying to be too helpful, you’re actually not helping anybody.

And then she she gave a tool which I have used since the difference between hurt and harm. So yeah, and I think this is so helpful for family enterprises in particular because a lot of needed conversations are avoided because we don’t want to hurt feelings. But what happens in the avoidance of the important conversations that might have hurt feelings at the end of it, is that we actually do a lot of harm in the system. So she made the distinction between harm and hurt hurt is, you know, short term, it’s temporary is less severe. harm is much more insidious, does a lot more deeper damage. And so I thought that was very helpful that we shouldn’t avoid difficult conversations because we’re fearful of hurting because by avoiding those conversations, we can actually do much longer term harm. And this is why I love these podcasts because there’s all these little nuggets that come and as family enterprise advisors, boy, do we need a toolbox to draw from right and I think these podcasts have done a really good job of just adding to the toolbox of the family enterprise advisors.

I mean, I really listened to all these podcasts in preparation for this. And I was like, wow, I should you know, listen to these.

I know exactly. So Steve, we always end our podcast with our guests like asking about, you know, what books have impacted us impacted the guest and maybe one piece of advice. So I’m going to close our time together by asking you books that have impacted you and maybe advice that you would have for other FTAs

so I’m gonna do I’m gonna do some recycling here. So apologies for no originality here. But the book range, which Josh Baron had suggested, I happen to listen to it just over the weekend when I was on a long drive and I listened to the audio book and I love that it’s talking about how being a generalist is more important than being a specialist and that’s generalists who can see what’s going on and the different lanes are so important, I think in this world where there are too many specialists who are only comfortable in their own lane. We need to have more people who can see how the lanes work together and can see everything that’s going on. So that that was the book. And then the piece of advice is the one from Scott Pepin. You are your own instrument we have so much we can offer. And we can make a difference as the advisors and we need to take that seriously. And we need to continue to develop ourselves to do it because we need to realize that the way we deliver the advice or the way we relate to people and connect with people has such a huge impact on some of these families. And so being my own instrument was the one so how about you, Ruth? What was your book and your peace of

mind? I just want to say this is one of my favorite parts of the podcast because I think you know, everybody that listens to the podcast, we’re all really busy and time is probably a commodity we don’t have a ton of. So I love this part. It’s my favorite part because it’s short circuits of all the books that are out there. Which one should I be listing which one should I be reading or listening to? So it’s one of my favorite parts. So mine is I mean, basically anything by Adam Carney I love I think he’s one of the great writers of our time. But there was one early of his earlier books, which really has helped me in this work. And it goes back to something we said earlier in the podcast that at the core this work is really about difficult conversations, and Adam Carney’s book solving tough problems. And open way to talking, listening and creating new realities. Give some really fantastic frameworks for helping human beings have difficult conversations whether you’re solving world peace, which he literally was he was dealing with Palestinian and Jewish issues or whether you’re dealing with something in your own family. These frameworks are tried and tested and really helpful. So that would be my recommendation. And then the one piece of advice. So this goes back to one of the guests that we’ve had on the podcast, Dr. Jim Grubman, the who you interviewed Steve, who is just such a inspiring leader in our field and such a great contributor. I had the great privilege of working with Dr. grubbing a few years ago with a client and he took me aside we would go and have a sort of single malt at the end of the day and one of those evenings when we’re doing our single malt together. He said, you know, Ruth, do you mind if I give you a little bit of feedback? And I said, Oh, absolutely thinking oh, he’s gonna, you know, tell me how great a job I did. But no, he said, You talk too much. I said, Wow, okay. He said, You know, because as advisors, we should not be doing all the talking. The client should be doing the talking. And when we’re talking, the client is not talking. And he said, You know, I use the 32nd rule. And the 32nd rule is, that’s the length of time, maximum length of time that we should be talking. Before we then invite the client to either contribute or we ask a question, or we draw them into the conversation. So Steve here, I was thinking, I talk because I’m trying to connect and trying to share stories and try to be that advisor that’s really relatable, but I was actually taking all the oxygen out of the room. I wasn’t leaving space for the client to talk. So since that piece of feedback, if you put 30 seconds on your phone, it’s actually quite a long time. Yeah, of course, I don’t time myself, but I do always have it in the back of my mind. When I’m with a client like am I talking too much, and have a created some space for the client to talk and it’s really served me well. So I share what I was given as a piece of advice with others the 32nd rule, which is the length of time that we should be talking before we invite the client to realize you know, you’ve just so

beautifully come full circle because that was something Moira summers talked to him interrupt the patients within 18 seconds or something like that. So we should all learn to talk to talk less and let the clients thought more. Hey, this was a lot of fun doing this with you, Ruth, thanks for agreeing to do this. I don’t remember whose idea it was, but I think it turned out all right.

Yeah, I think I think it might be a new tradition mistake. Anyway, but we do want to close with this. Just a reminder that we have a great program for next year too. So if you haven’t subscribed already, please do so that you don’t ever miss an episode. I think we’re the only podcast globally that is only focused on advisors to finally enterprises. And we really use this platform of podcasting to access some of the world’s foremost thinkers and leaders in our space. So it’s a great opportunity to access their wisdom in an easy to digest format. So thank you.

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